INTELLIGENT DESIGN AND INTELLECTUAL HONESTY (an exchange between Jersey Flight and Casey Luskin)

[A Letter to Casey Luskin:]

This is strange... I seem to have fallen into a hole (something they call theology). How does one get out of this catastrophe?

I can see a light above my head. There is a man holding a torch, but the question is how long his torch can remain lit?

It should be clear to any discerning student that those who advocate Intelligent Design are intellectually dishonest.

By god I would grant the premise!

Now the real question is why such a conclusion matters? Can the inference of design tell us anything about the Designer or Designers? Can it tell us whether or not these beings have anything relevant to do with existence aside from being its cause?

But who or what caused these mysterious Designers?
 
(Never mind this question, I am content to affirm the premise that they remain the axiom of existence).

What do you know about these beings that can tell us why they are relevant to life?

Saying "they caused it" does not disprove the fact that they may now be long dead. So perhaps Intelligent Design can only tell us that the Designers of life are irrelevant to life? How do we know that the Designers of life are not estranged from the process of life?

It will be uncontested that the evidence we examine to deduce the conclusion of Intelligent Design is not irrelevant (because its existence is immediate), but what about the Designers of that which exists, surely they are not evident in the same way that "their design" is evident? How then can one claim they are relevant to life?

Curiously yours,
Jersey Flight 

 
--------------LUSKIN--------------

 
Dear Jersey,

Greetings and thanks for your email. There are good answers to all of your questions. But I’ve been around the block many many times, and I know exactly what it means when you say: “It should be clear to any discerning student that those who advocate Intelligent Design are intellectually dishonest.”

As long as you think that “those who advocate Intelligent Design are intellectually dishonest,” then that tells me that (1) You probably don’t know very much about intelligent design, and (2) there’s a very high chance that you are not interested in seeking truth

So here’s my question to you: Are you open to the possibility that advocates of intelligent design are not “intellectually dishonest”?  If you’re not, then you’re not seeking truth, and you’re the problem here, not me.

If you are, then I’m open to having a dialogue with you.

I know that I am intellectually honest, and I know that there are good answers to your question.

The question is whether you’re open to hearing those answers or whether you just want to make personal attacks against that are rooted in your ignorance of people you disagree with.

Thanks.
Casey

 
--------------FLIGHT--------------

 
Mr. Luskin,

Perhaps it may come as a surprise, but I agree with you.

"Are you open to the possibility that advocates of intelligent design are not “intellectually dishonest”?"

Yes, it is entirely possible that my calculation of the Intelligent Design disposition could be wrong. It is possible that Intelligent Design advocates are the most honest people on the face of the earth.

I also affirm the fact that I could be exceedingly ignorant about Intelligent Design.

I am most certainly open to hearing answers, but I wonder if you are open to hearing objections?

The only other thing I can say is that the possibility of something is not the same as the reality of something. It is very easy to fallaciously mistake the denial of a favored proposition with the denial of truth (even though the latter is not necessarily equivalent to the former).  

respectfully yours,

 
--------------LUSKIN--------------

 
Hi Jersey,

I dialogue with ID critics constantly and I’ve spoken before many skeptics groups and skeptics forums where I’ve heard numerous objections. So not only am I “open to hearing objections” but I’ve probably heard most of the objections/question you might raise, and there’s even a good chance that I’ve answered those objections/questions in a compelling and respectful manner.

So I will give you the benefit of the doubt here that you’re open to the possibility that ID proponents are not intellectually dishonest (even though in your prior email you gave every indication that you aren’t open to that possibility because you wrote, in extremely strong terms, “It should be clear to any discerning student that those who advocate Intelligent Design are intellectually dishonest. By god I would grant the premise!” But I’m happy to look past all that until you give me new reasons to doubt your sincerity!

Also, please let me note from the outset that I am a Christian and I believe the designer is the God of the JudeoChristian religions. Now this is not a conclusion of ID. ID as a scientific theory does not address religious questions about the identity of the designer (see: http://www.discovery.org/a/4306).  Rather, my belief that God is the designer is my personal religious viewpoint that stems from factors and arguments outside of ID. There’s no intellectual dishonesty here: I’m being transparent with you about what I believe from the outset, because I think that’s important. In fact it’s very easy to find that ID proponents are open about their personal religious (or otherwise) views.

Thus, I should note: there are ID proponents who aren’t Christians, and ID proponents aren’t even religious. They see scientific evidence for design in nature, and I completely agree with them on that point!  But we have very different views about the identity of the designer. ID is not unified about some viewpoint about the identity of the designer. Rather, it’s unified about the view that there is scientific evidence for design in nature.

In any case, you first ask: “Now the real question is why such a conclusion matters? Can the inference of design tell us anything about the Designer or Designers? Can it tell us whether or not these beings have anything relevant to do with existence aside from being its cause?”

I reply: We have to treat your question on both a scientific level and on a philosophical level.

Scientifically, a scientific inference to design only tells you that there was an intelligent cause. So scientifically, it doesn’t tell you a whole lot more. However, I do know that on a scientific level the theory of intelligent design leads to many interesting additional scientific questions and avenues of investigation. For example:

• ID encourages scientists to do research which has detected high levels of complex and specified information in biology in the form of fine-tuning of protein sequences. This has practical implications not just for explaining biological origins but also for engineering enzymes and anticipating / fighting the future evolution of diseases. (See Douglas D. Axe, "Extreme Functional Sensitivity to Conservative Amino Acid Changes on Enzyme Exteriors," Journal of Molecular Biology, Vol. 301:585-595 (2000); Douglas D. Axe, "Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds," Journal of Molecular Biology, Vol. 341:1295-1315 (2004); Douglas D. Axe, "The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds," Bio-Complexity, Vol. 2010).)

• ID has inspired scientists to seek and find instances of fine-tuning of the laws and constants of physics to allow for life, leading to a variety of fine-tuning arguments including the Galactic Habitable Zone. This has huge implications for proper cosmological models of the universe, hints at proper avenues for successful "theories of everything" which must accommodate fine-tuning, and other implications for theoretical physics. (See Guillermo Gonzalez et al., "Refuges for Life in a Hostile Universe," Scientific American (October, 2001); D. Halsmer, J. Asper, N. Roman, T. Todd, "The Coherence of an Engineered World," International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics, Vol. 4(1):47-65 (2009).)

• ID leads scientists to understand intelligence as a scientifically studyable cause of biological complexity, and to understand the types of information it generates. (See Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, Vol. 117(2):213-239 (2004); W.A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1998); A.C. McIntosh, "Information and Entropy -- Top-Down or Bottom-Up Development in Living Systems?," International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics, Vol. 4(4):351-385 (2009).)

• ID directs both experimental and theoretical research into how limitations on the ability of Darwinian evolution to evolve traits that require multiple mutations to function. This of course has practical implications for fighting problems like antibiotic resistance or engineering bacteria. (See Michael Behe & David W. Snoke, "Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues," Protein Science, Vol. 13 (2004); Ann K Gauger, Stephanie Ebnet, Pamela F Fahey, Ralph Seelke, "Reductive Evolution Can Prevent Populations from Taking Simple Adaptive Paths to High Fitness," Bio-Complexity, Vol. 2010).

• ID produces theoretical research into the information-generative powers of Darwinian searches, leading to the finding that the search abilities of Darwinian processes are limited, which has practical implications for the viability of using genetic algorithms to solve problems. (See: William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man, and Cybernetics-Part A: Systems and Humans, Vol. 39(5):1051-1061 (September, 2009); Winston Ewert, William A. Dembski, and Robert J. Marks II, "Evolutionary Synthesis of Nand Logic: Dissecting a Digital Organism," Proceedings of the 2009 IEEE International Conference on Systems, Man, and Cybernetics, (October, 2009); William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Bernoulli's Principle of Insufficient Reason and Conservation of Information in Computer Search," Proceedings of the 2009 IEEE International Conference on Systems, Man, and Cybernetics, (October, 2009); Winston Ewert, George Montanez, William Dembski and Robert J. Marks II, "Efficient Per Query Information Extraction from a Hamming Oracle," 42nd South Eastern Symposium on System Theory, 290-297(March, 2010); Douglas D. Axe, Brendan W. Dixon, Philip Lu, "Stylus: A System for Evolutionary Experimentation Based on a Protein/Proteome Model with Non-Arbitrary Functional Constraints," PLoS One, Vol. 3(6):e2246 (June 2008).)

• ID has helped scientists develop proper measures of biological information, leading to concepts like complex and specified information or functional sequence complexity. This allows us to better quantify complexity and understand what features are, or are not, within the reach of Darwinian evolution. (See, for example, Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, Vol. 117(2):213-239 (2004); Kirk K. Durston, David K. Y. Chiu, David L. Abel, Jack T. Trevors, "Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins," Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, Vol. 4:47 (2007); Chiu, David K.Y., and Lui, Thomas W.H., "Integrated Use of Multiple Interdependent Patterns for Biomolecular Sequence Analysis," International Journal of Fuzzy Systems, Vol 4(3):766-775 (September, 2002).)

• ID has inspired scientists to investigate computer-like properties of DNA and the genome in the hopes of better understanding genetics and the origin of biological systems. (See Richard v. Sternberg, "DNA Codes and Information: Formal Structures and Relational Causes," Acta Biotheoretica, Vol. 56(3):205-232 (September, 2008); Ø. A. Voie, "Biological function and the genetic code are interdependent," Chaos, Solitons and Fractals, Vol 28(4) (2006): 1000-1004; David L. Abel & Jack T. Trevors, "Self-organization vs. self-ordering events in life-origin models," Physics of Life Reviews, Vol. 3:211-228 (2006).)

• ID encourages scientists to reverse engineer molecular machines like the bacterial flagellum to understand their function like machines, and to understand how the machine-like properties of life allow biological systems to function. (See for example Minnich, Scott A., and Stephen C. Meyer. "Genetic Analysis of Coordinate Flagellar and Type III Regulatory Circuits in Pathogenic Bacteria," Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Design & Nature, Rhodes Greece, edited by M.W. Collins and C.A. Brebbia (WIT Press, 2004); A.C. McIntosh, "Information and Entropy -- Top-Down or Bottom-Up Development in Living Systems?," International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics, Vol. 4(4):351-385 (2009).)

• ID causes scientists to view cellular components as "designed structures rather than accidental by-products of neo-Darwinian evolution," allowing scientists to propose testable hypotheses about causes of cancer. (See Jonathan Wells, "Do Centrioles Generate a Polar Ejection Force?." Rivista di Biologia / Biology Forum, Vol. 98:71-96 (2005).)

• ID has spawned ideas about life being front-loaded with information, such that it is designed to evolve, and had led scientists to expect (and now find!) previously unanticipated "out of place" genes in various taxa. (See, for example, Michael Sherman, "Universal Genome in the Origin of Metazoa: Thoughts About Evolution," Cell Cycle, Vol. 6(15):1873-1877 (August 1, 2007); Albert D. G. de Roos, "Origins of introns based on the definition of exon modules and their conserved interfaces," Bioinformatics, Vol. 21(1):2-9 (2005); Albert D. G. de Roos, "Conserved intron positions in ancient protein modules," Biology Direct, Vol. 2:7 (2007); Albert D. G. de Roos, "The Origin of the Eukaryotic Cell Based on Conservation of Existing Interfaces," Artificial Life, Vol. 12:513-523 (2006).)

• ID helps scientists explain the cause of the widespread feature of "convergent evolution," including convergent genetic evolution. (See Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, "Dynamic genomes, morphological stasis, and the origin of irreducible complexity," in Valerio Parisi, Valeria De Fonzo, and Filippo Aluffi-Pentini eds., Dynamical Genetics (2004); Nelson, P. & J. Wells, "Homology in biology: Problem for naturalistic science and prospect for intelligent design," in Darwinism Design and Public Education, Pp. 303-322 (Michigan State University Press, 2003); John A. Davison, "A Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis," Rivista di Biologia/Biology Forum 98 (2005): 155-166.)

• ID encourages scientists understand causes of explosions of biodiversity (as well as mass extinction) in the history of life. (See Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, "Dynamic genomes, morphological stasis, and the origin of irreducible complexity," in Valerio Parisi, Valeria De Fonzo, and Filippo Aluffi-Pentini eds., Dynamical Genetics (2004); Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, Vol. 117(2):213-239 (2004); Meyer, S. C., Ross, M., Nelson, P. & P. Chien, "The Cambrian explosion: biology's big bang," in Darwinism Design and Public Education, Pp. 323-402 (Michigan State University Press, 2003).)

• ID has inspired scientists to do various types of research seeking function for non-coding "junk"-DNA, allowing us to understand development and cellular biology. (See Jonathan Wells, "Using Intelligent Design Theory to Guide Scientific Research," Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design, 3.1.2 (Nov. 2004); A.C. McIntosh, "Information and Entropy -- Top-Down or Bottom-Up Development in Living Systems?," International Journal of Design & Nature and Ecodynamics, Vol. 4(4):351-385 (2009); Josiah D. Seaman and John C. Sanford, "Skittle: A 2-Dimensional Genome Visualization Tool," BMC Informatics, Vol. 10:451 (2009).)

Now on a philosophical level, of course ID raises the question of “whether or not these beings have anything relevant to do with existence aside from being its cause?” But the theory of ID takes a scientific approach so it does not answer such philosophical questions—it only raises them. As you properly note (when you say you “fell” into “theology”), our relationship to the designers is a theological question—and theological questions require theological answers. In that regard, if you are interested in that question, I would encourage you to explore various theological views which address our relationship to the designer.

You also ask, “But who or what caused these mysterious Designers?” and then state “(Never mind this question, I am content to affirm the premise that they remain the axiom of existence).”

I like your latter point here. Regarding the origin of the designer, your question essentially boils down to “what is the origin of the designer?” or “who designed the designer?”  I know one thing is clear: unguided processes do not design designers.  So is it wrong to infer design? Let’s discuss:

As regards the scientific theory of ID, again it doesn't address the origin or identity of the designer (see http://www.discovery.org/a/4306).   One can detect design without knowing who the designer was, or how the designer originated. Thus, your question is not a scientific one but a philosophical / metaphysical objection to certain types of design. We can talk about it, but this is a discussion that is outside the scope of science and treads into the realm of philosophy of metaphysics.

Thus, let’s say for the sake of argument that one is operating under a theistic perspective which holds that the designer is God.  (I personally am a Christian so this is my personal view, though that not a conclusion of ID.)  If is it inappropriate to postulate “God” as the designer? I don’t think it is.

In fact, the answer to the question is another question: Where did the universe come from?  Atheists / materialists have no answer to that question.  Theists believe that God is eternal and has no origin.  I’m a Christian, and a theist, so I’ll admit, I can't tell you where God came from, because either (1) nobody knows, or (2) to ask the question is to commit a category fallacy, like asking why there can't be married bachelors.  This does not trouble me at all; don't throw us theists in the briar patch of God's origin: atheists / materialists cannot say where anything came from.  All worldviews have, at their base, an uncaused cause.  The question is thus not "is it philosophically acceptable to believe in God, who has no origin?" but rather it is "Whose uncaused cause is most reasonable?"

I believe that God (who has no origin) is a far better "uncaused cause" than the "it happened for no reason at all fluctuation in the void" uncaused cause underlying the origin of everything for the philosophical naturalist. At least God is capable of creating the universe. An uncaused fluctuated in the void is not capable of creating anything—in fact it cannot exist without some prior cause. God is thus the only viable uncaused cause in town. 

This issue comes down to ASKING THE RIGHT QUESTION.  We may start with this question: Is it really true that, philosophically speaking, it isn't acceptable to believe in God unless we can somehow account for the origin of God?   For the Christian theist, there is no explanation for the origin of God, for God is by definition a Being existing outside of space and time eternally in the past, present, and future, from Whom all things which were created have come, who has no origin: Psalm 93:2: "Your throne was established long ago; you are from all eternity." Proverbs 8:23: "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began."  Thus, we can see God as an "uncaused cause."  But is this a problem?

It actually turns out that we have been asking the wrong question.  Here's why: EVERY WORLDVIEW has an uncaused cause at its beginning.  The WRONG question to worry about is therefore "Is it a problem that God has no origin?" because EVERY WORLDVIEW, including ATHEISM, has an uncaused cause at its beginning too.  So the RIGHT QUESTION is thus "whose uncaused cause is most reasonable?"  Atheists assert that the universe is essentially an uncaused cause.  So is it more unreasonable that everything came from nothing, or that everything came from a mind which never "came" into existence in the first place (i.e. the mind always has existed)?

So in my view, theists can answer the question of what was at the bottom of everything: God, who has no origin, is the root uncaused cause.  But atheists have no clue what their uncaused cause is because at the bottom of their chain, atheists never will have a clue how the chain started.  That's why the acclaimed Oxford atheist, scientist, and science writer Peter Atkins writes, "In the beginning there was nothing.  Absolute void, not merely empty space.  There was no space and there was no time, for this was before time. The universe was without form and void.  By chance there was a fluctuation..." (Peter Atkins, Creation Revisited, page 149)

But why was there a fluctuation in the void?  "By chance" is not an explanation.  There's no reason for it.  There's no reason to have a fluctuation in the void.  At the end of the day, whatever we discover, materialists are going to come back to a void and something happening for no reason at all -- "by chance."   So that's what's at the bottom of atheism: An event in a void that happens for no reason. Atheists can't avoid it.  Trying to avoid it will be a lifelong quest for a rabbit that no atheist will ever catch.  Ever.  Theism is superior because theists have a purposeful God who acted for a reason--an uncaused cause that is entirely consistent with our purposeful, meaningful universe.

In this regard, I think that accounting for the order in the universe by postulating a rational, powerful, intelligent being is far more philosophically acceptable than postulating "by chance, there was a fluctuation in the void," which is basically what atheists / materialists say.  Please note again that this little excursion really has nothing to do with the scientific theory of ID as your question was philosophical, not scientific.

You ask: “What do you know about these beings that can tell us why they are relevant to life?”

I reply: Well, as I said, I’m a Christian and I believe the designer is the God of the Bible. Now my belief that the designer is the God of the Bible doesn’t come from intelligent design; it’s my own personal religious belief. But I believe that God is highly relevant to life because (a) He made us because He wants to have a personal relationship with us, and (b) He loves humanity dearly and views us as His children. In fact, because God made us, he knows exactly what is best for us. Kind of like a car manufacturer knows what’s best for the car you just bought, God knows what is best for us and He’s even given us an instruction manual outlining what sort of habits and values and actions will lead to the best kind of life for us.

So I think that God is extremely relevant to life.

And please note: Everything I said in response to this question is completely beyond the scope of ID. There are ID proponents who aren’t Christians and aren’t religious and nonetheless see scientific evidence for design in nature. I agree with them on that point completely—that there is scientific evidence for design in nature!  But we have different views about the identity of the designer.

You also noted: “Saying ‘they caused it’ does not disprove the fact that they may now be long dead.”

I reply: You are correct.

You also wrote: “So perhaps Intelligent Design can only tell us that the Designers of life are irrelevant to life?”

I reply: That’s a possibility, but as a scientific theory, ID doesn’t tell us anything about whether the designer(s) are relevant to life. It doesn’t say one thing or another. ID is a scientific theory and all it does is determine whether life is the result of an intelligent cause.

But, ID certainly raises the question of WHETHER the designer is relevant to life. In fact, we’re seeing that fact in play since you are now asking these questions. ID does not answer those questions, however.

You ask: “How do we know that the Designers of life are not estranged from the process of life?”

I reply: Not through ID. But other things—philosophical and theological arguments that are outside the scope of ID—can help us address these questions: I believe that we see the designer is relevant to life because we see in humanity a strong desire to understand the ultimate, to reach out and understand our place in the scheme of things. I think this was put there by the designer because He wanted us to understand Him.

We also see beauty in nature and immense hugeness of the beautiful universe which point to a creator who is saying “I’m here, I’m great, and I love you, and I want you to know me.”

Thus, over 90% of people who have lived have looked at nature and seen evidence of a loving creator.

For me personally, I know that the designer is not “estranged” from my life because He answers my prayers and has shown me that He loves me.

You write: “How then can one claim they are relevant to life?”

I reply: Not through ID. But you can claim this through other things—like the fact that you yourself are asking this question because it was put there within you but a Designer who wants you to know him. The question won’t go away until you find the answer—because that’s exactly how God wants you to feel.

After all, if the Designer made you, and you have a desire to understand the Designer, then you might want to assume that the Designer put that desire in you so that you would want to know Him/It/etc.

Again, I want to reiterate that a lot of these questions go way beyond ID and get into theology and philosophy. But I hope my answers are a start at answering your questions.

Thanks.

Sincerely,
Casey

 
--------------FLIGHT--------------

 
With all due respect Mr. Luskin, it seems to me that what you said amounts to this:

- Certain objects in the world have the appearance of being designed (insofar as we understand design in relation to ourselves).

- Therefore, certain objects in the world have the appearance of being designed.

But can you get beyond this premise?

As to whether you are honest you say,

"Also, please let me note from the outset that I am a Christian and I believe the designer is the God of the Judeo-Christian religions. Now this is not a conclusion of ID. ID as a scientific theory does not address religious questions about the identity of the designer.  Rather, my belief that God is the designer is my personal religious viewpoint that stems from factors and arguments outside of ID."

Then surely you do not use (and would never use) Intelligent Design to persuade someone that your Christianity was true? Do you, from the outset, tell students that your Christian belief is not the conclusion of Intelligent Design? After all, "our relationship to the designers is a theological question—and theological questions require theological answers."

But how do you know this? How do you know that our relation to the designers is a theological question? [What relation? What evidence is there to prove that there is any relation at all?] But I am even further confused by your reply... what exactly is a theological answer? (for here it should be clear, pending your views, that one cannot say "a scientific answer").

And though you claim Intelligent Design encourages, inspires, leads, directs, produces, creates, causes, spawns and helps, I don't see how any of these points rise above the authority of science? In other words, these properties are not contingent on Intelligent Design (and in many ways) are generated far more vigorously without this premise. Not to mention, you listed Intelligent Design as a cause which leads to the act of looking for more Intelligent Design. This is not only absurd but proves the opposite point of your premise. In other words, if Intelligent Design causes the pursuit of Intelligent Design then Intelligent Design is not only irrelevant, but dangerous insofar as it wastes time on a redundancy; on a premise that leads nowhere.

[Your argument for the relevance of Intelligent Design is that it leads to the pursuit of Intelligent Design? But in order for this to be a relevant pursuit you must first prove that the discovery of Intelligent Design is relevant. To "discover" Intelligent Design is very different from explaining how this design works. How is it that the former is in any way necessary to the latter? You can tell me that (X) was designed, but you have told me nothing until you have told me how (X) works.]

My question is thus, what scientific procedure requires the premise of Intelligent Design?

"ID has inspired scientists to do various types of research seeking function for non-coding "junk"-DNA, allowing us to understand development and cellular biology."

Is this accurate, was it Intelligent Design that "allowed us to understand" development and cellular biology?
        
"I think this was put there by the designer because He wanted us to understand Him."

Given your admissions regarding the nature of Intelligent Design there is no way to know this.

"We also see beauty in nature and immense hugeness of the beautiful universe which point to a creator who is saying “I’m here, I’m great, and I love you, and I want you to know me.”

Given your admissions regarding the nature of Intelligent Design there is no way to know this.

We also see terror and cruelty, a world without mercy, ugliness (but somehow this has no bearing on your honest conclusion).

"Thus, over 90% of people who have lived have looked at nature and seen evidence of a loving creator."

Is this an argument for Pantheism, Deism or Polytheism?

"For me personally, I know that the designer is not “estranged” from my life because He answers my prayers and has shown me that He loves me."

You mean the same way Muslims know their designer-God is not "estranged" from life? And if your experience qualifies as proof then why does their experience not qualify as proof? Is their personal experience somehow less than yours? Is this what you mean by theological answers?

You are certainly honest when you say your belief in the Christian-Trinity-God is not a conclusion of Intelligent Design... to arrive here with conviction one must appeal to something other than evidence.          

Now my interest in relation to Intelligent Design is what one can conclude about the Designer or Designers? (And here I highly doubt your theology takes precedent over the evidence). After all, how did we arrive at the conclusion of Intelligent Design to begin with if it was not by the authority of evidence?

I say Intelligent Design is true, but it is a premise without relevance precisely because the evidence points to the fact of a material creator or creators (which are either long dead or have nothing to do with this universe).

I say Intelligent Design is true insofar as Evil Design is true.

I say Intelligent Design is true insofar as Unintelligent Design is true.

And the difference between these conclusions, and your conclusions of theology, is that these conclusions can actually be deduced by the evidence! They do not violate the original context of Intelligent Design.

I say you are dishonest because you seek to deny these conclusions on the basis of "theology" (all the while affirming the premise of Intelligent Design).

So this is my question, but what logic or authority do you deny the evidence of Intelligent Design in favor of theology?

I grant your premise of Intelligent Design, but I vigorously call you out on your non-sequitur leap to theology.

The conclusion of the Intelligent Design premise is precisely the fact that Intelligent Design doesn't matter.*

Remember, when you say Intelligent Design matters you are not speaking of Intelligent Design, you are speaking of the subjectivity of theology.

*[Even if we grant the premise that Intelligent Design matters, we must then ask the question as to how it matters? And here the answer is exceedingly limited. For it does not matter in the context of ethics or science. It is true that it might offer a few comrades a sense of inspiration, but this feeling has nothing to do with science. Intelligent Design does not explain but needs to be explained. To say that Intelligent Design matters is to equivocate the term "matters" with subjectivity. Essentially this amounts to saying, "Intelligent Design matters to me." And if it has any existential force, it would seem that this force is eclipsed by the weakness of the premise itself (it is an affirmation that leads nowhere).]

Confidently yours,



-----[Luskin gave no reply -- Flight responds]:

 
It is clear to any reader that you came out of the gate swinging with the utmost theological confidence, but perhaps second considerations have struck dumb your confidence? I am reminded of the crisis of C. S. Lewis (perhaps the only time he was confronted with reality):

“Not that I am (I think) in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about Him. The conclusion I dread is not 'So there's no God after all,' but 'So this is what God's really like. Deceive yourself no longer.” A Grief Observed

Even so have I pushed the dialectic against your theological delusions.

In order to retain your theology the questions I asked must remain unanswered, or at the very least, they must be dismissed by fallaciously striking my character.*

You wanted a God and so I granted you a God, but when the more relevant question of God's nature came into focus you abandoned your original line of reason and ran for cover (you ran to the assertions of theology). I then asked you to connect your theology with your original premise... my request was met with silence.

You are dishonest because you use Intelligent Design as a mechanism by which to propagate your Christian theism. You are dishonest because you abandon the authority of your original premise (after you have used it to conclude the existence of a Designer) you then forsake that premise in favor of theology. In this way you prey on ignorance; in this way you deceive children.

By all means do tell; what is the most consistent view of God pending the appearance of design?

Much like Lewis I suspect your theological belief is invincible: "not that I am in much danger of ceasing to believe in God." [Because NOTHING could draw forth this conclusion; it is entirely unfalsifiable!] While it is honest to say, "no matter what I will always be a Christian." It is dishonest to claim that this conviction is the result of some kind of evidence (when in fact) it is the result of psychological considerations.

Mr. Luskin please stop pretending.
Please stop deceiving yourself.
Please stop preying on ignorant people.

It is time for honestly; it is time to face the question of the nature of God in light of your original premise.

Confidently yours,
Jersey Flight

* I anticipate Mr. Luskin attempting to claim that I am doing the same thing to him... poor fellow, he ought to learn to read more carefully. There is a big difference between legitimately deducing one's character (as I have done in the case of Mr. Luskin) and fallaciously striking one's character (as I suspect Mr. Luskin would do to me). I suspect his reasoning will run as follows: Mr. Flight was not open to falsification. But wait! What does it mean to be open to falsification in the case of Mr. Luskin except that one must agree with him? Very well, I granted his premise of God, but where is the evidence for the assertions of his theology? Mr. Luskin has affirmed my dialectic at every major point, how then does he retain his Christian God? I strike a blow with a hammer: this is a violation of his original premise! By what logic does he impose his theology; for surely he must stick to the authority of his original premise? And yet he has already admitted, that from such, he cannot deduce his idea of God!!!

At the end of the day (pending the standards of his own worldview) perhaps Mr. Luskin's position is too subjective to be of any value:

"For me personally, I know that the designer is not “estranged” from my life because He answers my prayers and has shown me that He loves me."


--------------LUSKIN--------------


Hi Jersey,

Wow, I’m really saddened by your reply. I thought you were serious when you said you wanted to seek truth, but now I see that you don’t want to give me a chance to reply. You just want to call names. You’re a typical angry atheist who isn’t seeking truth: Why do so many atheists spend most of their time calling names? It’s like the whole community of Internet atheists wants to call names rather than having a serious dialogue seeking truth.

So here’s the deal:

Actually I haven’t even read more than about 5% of your prior reply yet. Why? Because this is actually the busiest season of the year for my job. I normally work 80 hour weeks and this week is Discovery Instituite’s Summer Seminar on Intelligent Design (http://www.discovery.org/id/summer-seminars/) WHICH I RUN, and where I’m basically on call working from early morning to well past 10 pm, including weekends. Last week I was very very busy prepping for this, creating numerous talks and handling all kinds of logistical complications of bringing students from all over the world to Seattle for 8 days. This has been an incredibly busy past few weeks. In fact this is arguably the busiest season of the year for my job.

And that’s this week. On a normal week I still get hundreds of emails each week and trust me, you’re not the only person I haven’t responded to this week due to our summer seminar. So please don’t feel too bad about my lack of a reply. But you are the only person this week that I haven’t responded to who is calling me names because of it. Oh well, I can’t worry about things that I can’t control. 

In any case, you just flamed out and exposed yourself as a typical namecalling angry atheist who isn’t seeking truth: You were attacking the character of ID proponents from your very first email (remember “It should be clear to any discerning student that those who advocate Intelligent Design are intellectually dishonest. By god I would grant the premise!”)

I called you on that and said that your personal attacks suggested that you might not be seeking truth. But I answered your questions anyways, very nicely actually. And I didn’t attack your character—in fact I said I was willing to believe you if you say that you say you are seeking truth until you give me reasons to think you’re not.

Sadly, you’ve now just given me reasons to think you’re not seeking truth. You just wrote a reply repeatedly accusing me of being “dishonest” when you didn’t even give me a chance to reply. You are apparently not interested in my reply.

You wrote a reply on July 3 that I haven’t even had time to read yet because this week (and much of last week) are basically my busiest work-weeks of the year. I was hoping to get a chance to write a reply when I’m on vacation with my wife’s family next week.

In any case, you couldn’t wait for that. Despite the fact that your reply to me took about a week (during which time I really didn’t pay any attention and wasn’t even thinking about wanting to call you names), you now take my lack of a reply over about 10 days as some kind of evidence of my dishonesty.

You also apparently think that I use ID to try to promote Christianity. Actually, I have been very clear in all of my public writings that ID is not an argument for God. See for example:

http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1341
http://www.discovery.org/a/7501
http://www.discovery.org/a/4306

There are many other places I’ve said the same thing.

And here’s the deal: I speak before lots of secular groups and lots of Christian groups. To all of those groups I say the EXACT same thing: ID isn’t an argument for “God” or the “supernatural” and can’t be used to argue someone all the way that Christianity is true. It does, however, provide an argument for an intelligent cause, although the scientific theory does not identify who the intelligent cause is. But I have never said that ID can provide an argument that goes all the way to Christianity. It doesn’t, and I’ve said this publicly and privately and consistently to all kinds of diverse audiences—religious and non-religious—throughout my entire involvement with ID. I’ve only been consistent on this because this is what I believe. 

The only reason I discussed theology in my prior reply is because you raised non-scientific issues that were theological in nature. You weren’t asking scientific questions. You were asking theological questions. Theological questions require theological answers. I explained how ID doesn’t address those issues so I went beyond ID into non-scientific issues. I made that very clear. Then you blew up quite angrily! My goodness—that’s quite amazing to see how hateful and malicious you’ve become just because I tried to answer your theological questions which went far beyond the science of ID!

So here’s where we’re at: I’m a nice guy and I don’t call names and I didn’t call you any names. You apparently like to call names viciously, as your most recent email is extremely mean-spirited and hateful towards me. You’ve shown me that you’re not seeking truth and you’re just a typical angry atheist who wants to call names rather than seek truth.

But I’m a nice guy and I’m willing to give second chances (in your case, this is actually a third chance).

Thus, I am willing to write a response to your July 3 email if you will now apologize for all of the names that you called me in your prior email and admit that you were wrong to assume that I think that ID is an argument for Christianity. Your questions went beyond ID and beyond science and so there was no way to answer them unless I went into theology. You want to hate me because I tried to answer your questions…but if you apologize and show me you are seeking truth I’m willing to give you a third chance.

II.

And just to be clear, because I’m so busy I only want to dialogue with you if you are really seeking truth. Otherwise, it’s a waste of my time. Given that you have called me so many names, you really seem like you’re too emotional and too angry to actually be willing to have a dialogue. You want to dehumanize me through verbal abuse. I forgive you for doing this, but it’s not worth my time to dialogue unless you  are going to treat me in a humane, civil, and friendly manner—in other words if you can show me that you are actually seeking truth.

Again, I forgive you Jersey for the terrible ways you are treating me, but I’m happy to dialogue with you if you want to apologize and show me that you are seeking truth. I can answer your questions and objections, but if you want to hear my answers then you have to unflame your flame-out. That means you have to apologize and stop calling me names. You called me all kinds of nasty names before you even gave me a chance to reply to your July 3 email. (BTW, I was gone all July 4 weekend so that was another time I couldn’t write a reply).

The ball is 100% in your court.

Thanks again,
Casey


--------------FLIGHT-------------- 


The error here is mine. I presumed (because all your other replies came in such a speedy fashion, and because you kept on putting forth the idea, that if you perceived a lack of openness then you would discontinue the exchange). Therefore I fallaciously presumed that you did not want to reply (this was a hasty generalization on my part though not entirely unfounded, as you did not get back to me to explain the necessity of your delayed response). Please forgive me for not being more patient, I was certainly eager to consider your reply, which is why I was so disappointed when it did not arrive in the same time frame as the others.

You asked for an apology, this is certainly no apology as I cannot apologize for speaking the truth. Unless of course, you are saying you do not prey on people's ignorance? Are you saying that you do not use Intelligent Design to propagate your Christian theism?

Mr. Luskin your complaints have uncovered a greater issue; an issue far more relevant than the issue of Intelligent Design: the issue of the nature of dialectic itself.

Regardless of whether or not you want to continue this exchange I will respond to what you have written, because I believe it is vitally important to the clarity and future of dialectic; I believe it is important to all the tough-minded thinkers of the world who have been constantly beaten-down and thwarted by the fallacy of piety. In short, it seems to me your response is an attempt to evade the force of my questions by subverting the discourse in the name of a hidden and unjustified morality. Your reply is a red herring; a desperate attempt to shift the burden of proof.

Dear Sir, your presumption is that it is always wrong to say something negative about a person, even if that thing is true. I did not invent the fact of your position, but merely deduced it by reason. If you don't like the conclusion you either need to refute it or change. [Welcome to the land of tough thinkers.]

Let me be clear: you should be offended at someone calling you dishonest, but this offense is not proof that you are honest (and neither is it proof that I have done something wrong in drawing this conclusion).

My forthcoming reply will expose the unfounded moral assumptions behind your claims.

Vigorously yours,
Jersey Flight



[the exchange was not completed because there was an abject loss of interest in the exchange]

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