JERSEY FLIGHT AND THE MORAL THEIST

Theist: You just used the word evil, but you can't speak of evil apart from God.

Flight: What do you mean by evil?

Theist: Something that is wrong at all times for all places and all people.

Flight: What does God have to do with a thing like that?

Theist: He is the one who ensures the constancy and existence of goodness, and therefore we can speak of evil. I hear you speak of morality, but in this you are ignorant because you cannot have morality without God.

Flight: You are correct that I speak of moral things, but why do I need your God for morality?

Theist: Because without God you have no Absolutes.

Flight: Oh dear! Why do I need Absolutes to have morality? Are you saying that I need to recognize, prove that an idea is Absolute, before it can be moral?

Theist: There is no such thing as morality if there are no Absolutes. I'm saying you can't have morality without God!

Flight: I think you meant to say that I can't have Absolute Morality without your belief in God? Well my friend, I'm afraid I simply have no experience of Absolutes. I don't know how to speak about Absolutes, and I certainly don't know how to speak about God. Everything I say is contingent to some time, place and limited portion of people.

Theist: Then you can't have Absolute Morality, all you can have is subjectivity.

Flight: I never claimed that my knowledge is able to rise above the status of subjectivity (but I hardly see how this equalizes all claims in the context of existence)? I can see you think this is a serious problem, but I still have morality, even as I'm a moral person, and what is more, my morality continues to progress! Surely this should be impossible if your view was correct?

Theist: No, you can have morality, but you can only have it because God exists. The reason you are a moral person is because God exists. The fact that you are moral is proof that God exists.

Flight: I see... but I don't consult your God when deriving or practicing my morals. While I agree with the idea that I'm a moral person, I have an exceedingly difficult time understanding how this furnishes proof for God?

Theist: Because you can't have Moral Absolutes without God.

Flight: It seems to me you can't have Moral Absolutes even if you believe in God? (At least this seems to be the case insofar as you have defined Absolutes). Surely you are not claiming that your belief in God is proof that he exists? So which one is it; does the existence of God prove the existence of Absolutes, or does the existence of Absolutes prove the existence of God? Are you sure you are not confusing your belief in Absolutes for the existence of Absolutes? Are you sure you are not confusing the existence of morality for the existence of Absolute Morality? As to say, "because morals exist, therefore Absolute Morality exists?" But this gets worse; you seem to be saying that if Absolute Morality does not exist, then morality itself cannot exist? But why is Absolute Morality required for the existence of morality?

Theist: Because you believe in Absolutes therefore God exists, and you can't have Absolutes without God. You need God in order to have Absolute Morality, and you need Absolute Morality in order to have morality.

Flight: I suspect I am not interested in your belief in Absolute Morality, just as I am not interested in your belief in God (both things appear to be a fiction). You are very good at making assertions, but I already have morality without your God. You keep on insisting that I need him for something, but I have lived my whole life without him, why do I need to believe in him now?

Theist: Because God is the source of goodness, because it is not possible to have goodness without God. Only God can tell us what is good and evil.

Flight: Moral people are not merely obedient; there is a sharp contrast between moral people and obedient people. You are saying I need to be obedient in order to be moral. I suspect you are very confused about the nature of morality. You are free to believe in God and Absolutes, but please do not pretend that your belief is proof that they exist, insofar as it is not proof that your belief is authoritative. Though you say, "I need your God," it is clear that this is merely your belief, this assertion does not make contact with existence. I will not only continue to practice morality, but I will also continue to discourse about morality. Your God is not merely defunct (as he would first have to exist in order for this to be the case) but even if he does exist, he is totally irrelevant, not only to morality, but existence itself! You may take him as an aesthetic idea if it brings you joy, but such mindless authoritarianism is too juvenile for me.

Theist: You will be very sorry for your arrogance when you die. God will make you submit, but by then it will be too late. You will burn in eternal fire. Either believe now or believe later, but no matter what you will eventually believe!

Flight: O man of conviction, I'm done lending you my ear, you will have to find a new audience for your tyranny. 

-
-
-